My Boat is Sick

[1957Creaky]

Mostly, this message is for Andreas, but naturally, all input is more than welcome. Hope this doesn't run too long.

Andreas -- those pictures of your latest restoration are just awesome. The floor looks great, the seats look great, and the stern is so tidy. It's a top job and I'm very envious, not only of the finished product, but of your ability and opportunity to dedicate to such a sweet-looking boat.

Here's my story, and it includes some stuff you'll hate to hear. This 1957 Thompson was the last thing I was looking for in 2003.







I was shopping around on the weekends for a runabout or jonboat, just to sputter around this Corps Of Engineers lake here in my area. I saw this old, wooden boat with spider webs and dirt-dauber nests all over it, and a big inline 6 motor that hadn't been started in years, but the wood on the topside (under the layers of caked-on dirt) was dark and shiny and beautiful. Man, I just heard angels sing. It had been for sale for a long time, I was told at the marina, and when I managed to contact the owners, they let me have it for next to nothing. (In fact, I had to insist on paying a little more than they quoted. I'm not retarded, but this is the south, and these are older people in my small town. Hard to explain.) So now I owned this boat.

Long story short: I became an expert on outboards and got the Merc in shape. The boat's electrical and steering were serviceable, I got the tilt/trim working, and I removed/replaced the rusty steel gas tank. And do you know I have run that boat on my lake, at least two weekends a month, YEAR-ROUND, since then? I keep it on a trailer, inside a storage shed (Oh, here's another photo opportunity...)



And when I want to go, I put it in the water, fire that mother up, and I go until all my gas is gone. This thing is beyond reliable, positively glides through the water, and a purer experience of pleasure does not exist for me. (I work in a rather stressful office environment and when I'm cruising my lake, in my amazing boat, I am as mellow as a monk.)



Well, it's been four years, and here's my nervous part: The boat has always taken in a little bit of water. After a half hour or more of running, I would notice an inch or two of water in the bilge. No sweat...I pull the plug, run it out, repeat as needed. I never sought to find out EXACTLY where it was leaking, I just chalked it up to 50-year-old wood, and figured as long as it doesn't get any worse, what's the harm?

Enter the harm. Yesterday, I went to my beloved boat, launched her, parked the truck, and returned to find water rising in the back, almost to the lip of the battery dry box, and coming up around the edges of the floor. I quickly got it back on the trailer, and with the plug still in, watched water dribble out from several places where wood meets wood. I also noticed that several screws below the water line had backed out a bit, and some were even missing. It's a sieve. How I avoided a catastrophe out on the water is beyond me.

I pulled up the floor today and the wood structure beneath is impressively sound. No rotten wood, and one cracked rib in the middle (which could have happened in the 60's, as far as anyone knows). I'm convinced that the leaks are at the screw locations below the waterline, and where the transom meets the stern.

Here's why I'm writing: I don't know what I'm doing. I'm determined to fix this boat, to seal the leaks, and make it lake-worthy again. It's given me so many hours of enjoyment, and as silly as this sounds, I feel obligated to try as hard as I can to get it back in serviceable form. But woodwork? I know nothing about it. I have no workspace like a garage or workshop, I know nothing about fasteners and stringers and scarfing ribs and I have no idea how I'm even going to flip the boat over to sand/seal/paint/whatever. Is there a way to flip it without removing the windshield? See where I am? Lost.

I'm hoping your expertise isn't ALL in your head and experience, and that there is a book or books that I can use to help guide me along this journey. So, if you can, please recommend some reading for me, or at the very least, let me know that I can ask a million questions of you and the rest of the users of this board, and that I won't be too much of a pain for doing so.

Apologies for the long message. Appreciate all comments. Thank you.

Please help me do THIS again!

[a j r]

Hey David,

Great boat and great story - well, not the massive leaking part.

Sounds like she could use an overhaul. One quick fix is to place slightly larger scews in the places with the loose and missing screws. Use silicon bronze or brass. Do not use stainless steel. They should not be any longer than the existing ones, but a slightly larger diameter.

Screws are sized by diameter and length. For example, your screws that attach planking to the ribs MIGHT be somethng like #6 x 1 1/8". Go to the next larger diameter such as #8 x 1 1/8".

Dab the tip of the screw in some marine caulking before putting it into the wood. Wipe off any squeeze out. You will notice that the screws are countersunk - burried below the wood surface a bit. They need to be puttied to create a smooth surface, even with the painted wood. Use something like Smith's Fill-It or Marine Tex as a filler. 3M makes a marine filler too. Let this dry probably for 24 hours. Sand it flush with the surrounding wood. Prime paint and let that dry and put on finish top coats of paint.

It may be possible to stop leaking of the junction of planking to transom by caulking. It is also possible that your screws and nails have come loose or are broken and need to be replaced.

I wonder if there is a chapter of the Antique & Classic Boat Society (www.acbs.org) near you? Getting involved and asking questions is a great means to expand your knowledge. They may have membbers that are willing to look at your boat and give advice.

It will be difficult to flip your boat with the windshield on it. To remove it, take out the glass on tee side windows. Be careful not to break the glass, gough the wood or bend the metal retainers. Don't loose the little nails. You will see screws in the groove attaching the frame to the gunwale covering boards. The front portion of the windsheild is screwed from underneath the deck.

My 1957 Sea Lancer has never been stripped to bare wood. This is my winter project. I will flip her, strip the hull to bare wood, refasten, caulk, seal, and repaint. She does not leak a drop, but she is lookijng a bit haggered. Therefore I am doing the complete refinish.

I hope this helps and feel free to stay in touch.

Andreas
email: thomsponboat@msn.com

[1957Creaky]

Thanks very much for the reply and the tip on the screws. I'll tend to them when I finally get the boat flipped. And I will definitely search this area for some hands-on help.

And what about a book or books? Is there a definitive bible to follow when getting started on a project like that? I saw a thread that mentioned some Danenberg volumes. Are they suitable for a rookie?

Thanks again.

DJ

[a j r]

Don Danenberg's two books are very good. The second one has more information relative to lapstrake hulls. Altho both focus mainly on inboard varnished mahoagny runabouts. See if you can get them on interlibrary loan thru your local library. Take 'em for a test ride before purchasing copies for yourself.

Was water coming out of the joint at the keel and stem??? This is a very typical place for these types of boats to leak. There has been plenty written here on this forum and in the Dockside newsletter about how to address this issue.

Andreas

[1957Creaky]

Was water coming out of the joint at the keel and stem??? This is a very typical place for these types of boats to leak. There has been plenty written here on this forum and in the Dockside newsletter about how to address this issue.

Andreas

It appears that the water is coming from these places (This is not my boat...just a picture I found.)



I'm still trying to get my head around how I'm going to flip my boat over. I guess I'll have to take the windshield off...I appreciate your guide on how to do that. I'm worried because the bottom wooden edge of the windshield meets the upper deck very cleanly, with lots of varnish. I doubt I can make that join as claenly after the windshield goes back on. I suppose I'll have to strip and re-varnish the whole topside afterwards. What a project.

[a j r]

hummm...leaking at the junction of planking and the transom. It probably means the fasteners from planking to transom are loose or broken. With them being loose, the old caulking is not doing its job. It would have dried out anyways after 50 years.

I'd remove the screws and check their condition. Replace with new ones.

Taking the windshield off is no big deal. Just make sure you have another ste of hands to lift and move iot. It's not heavy, just very awkward. There should be a white vinyl molding between the bottom of the windshield and the deck. This covers any "inconsistancies." You can get new stuff from at least two sources.

Flipping the boat is simple after the motor and windshield are removed. Roll it off of the trailer or lift it off with chain hoists. Set it on the ground. Use packing blankets, old carpet etc... to cushion it. Get five or six guys over and literally just heave-ho and roll it. Simple simon. Takes two minutes.

If you flip it, I highly recommend removing the keel. Remove it, clean under it, sand, seal, prime paint, recaulk and reattach it. This is not all that difficult and again, the caulking that was put on originally 50 years ago has long ago dried up.

Andreas

[1957Creaky]

Again, I appreciate your reply. I'll get to the boat again on Monday morning. Off comes the motor and the windshield. I'll take photos.

I wonder if I can flip it over BACK ONTO THE TRAILER. That way I can roll it into and out of the shelter I'm leasing for however long it takes to do this job. I'll need some boards and padding, etc.

Here's the only picture I have of my trailer. This will be interesting.

[thegammas]

David - Our plights are simiar - my Sea Lancer leaks from a few places - though not bad enough right now that I cant take it out. I've got bad caulk, broken screws, and lose machine bolts, and a questionable stem cap. I recaulked everthing I could with the boat on stands, and that was alot. But it still leaks.

I'll be rolling mine this winter as well. I've got the added challenge of some structural repairs to make. With yet more challenge (it think) over a WI built boat because the ribs in my Cortland boat run from gunwale, under the first sister keelson, under the keel, and on to the other keelson.

Have you ever had your floors out? When I took mine out, the condition was not what I expected (or was told)

I'll watch your progress this winter with great interest.

[John Hart]

David... You may want to consider just replacing the screws as Andreas suggests. If you have lost several screws, and that alone resulted in loose planks, you might want to try to repair without removing from the trailer.

You could get some silicon bronze screws, bedding compound (looks like stiff peanut butter). Then use a floor jack to raise the hull enough for inspection... Look all over for evidence of screws beginning to pop, and also at the seem between the transom and bottom planks.

It is possible that you could rebed/replace and tighten a few screws and get a lot of your problem corrected. You could probably fill the countersunk screw holes with bedding compound for a test run, instead of the typical epoxy fill.

If you have a minor crack between the transom and bottom planks, you might consider Boat Life seal... a poly/silicone sealant... I prefer polysulfide in caulks vs. silicone, but this sealer says it is for wood above and below the waterline. The main thing is that it is clear.

If you are ready to disassemble your boat for a complete overhall, removing the motor and flipping is the way to go. Make sure you take pictures and make a map of where all the hardware/seats go for reassembly. Be advised that once you start down that path, you may end up on a lot of other paths.

However, if you just want to get your boat in the water again, you may be able to do the things mentioned above. The time invested would be minimal, and you need to buy Sil Bronze screws and bedding cmpd anyway. Personally, I think I would try that first... there is little to lose.

John Hart

[John Hart]

I just thought of several more options to consider...again, you can do these w/o removing from the trailer.

I have used Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer (CPES) on the joint between my transom and bottom planks... up to about the spray rail. While CPES is used primarily as a wood penetrating sealer, I believe that it provides some sealing of joints, without requiring disassembly.

You can buy some syringes (like 3 for $2) from a farm supply store, the smallest needle you can find. Then suck up the mixed epoxy into the syringe. You can position the oval hole of the needle at an angle so that you can inject/dribble the runny epoxy into the crack. (I would drop the tongue) In my case, I could see it wick in, and then eventually stay filled. CPES will cure to a flexible taffy like clear substance. The benefit is that it is an easy process, will flow into teeny cracks, and yet not prohibit you from later disassembly, like a harder epoxy would. I would tape above and below the crack with blue 3m tape. The reason for using the needle and going slow, is to keep from getting the CPES on your varnished surfaces... It will lift it like a stripper. Then you can revarnish the cracked area a few days later.

You can get CPES from Jamestown Dist. I always have some on hand and have used it on bird houses, and some punky spots on floor joists before I replanked the deck on my house. Since I am a little obsessed with keeping water out, a year later, I also got some 3m 4200 caulk and tried to lay this along the joint and force in with a putty knife. Then I cleaned off all but a narrow bead with denatured alcohol.

John.

[txcaptdan]

David.
If these contacts with the transom are your only leaks then I would take the advise to expose all screws around transom and refasten these joints. It is possible to loosen the planks and open the area between the transom edge and plank enough to force a sealer into that contact. Don't be afraid to add new screws were needed.
You have a very nice user boat and I am of the opinion that it could be resealed and used some more.
Pay attention to how well screws grab into transom and do some probing with an ice pick as you may have some underlying rot in transom edges that may be causing problem to begin with.

[1957Creaky]

Wow...all great advice and a lot to take in. I am considering every avenue and will document my progress here. If I go with flipping the boat, my marina has a strap-hoist that I will likely use to raise the boat from the trailer, then back on, etc. That's due to the absence of 5-6 people I'd probably need to do it without hoist help.

My frustration now is the combination of work and NON-BOAT-RELATED developments in real life that are keeping me from getting this party started.

More to come. Thanks again for all input.

[john]

Before you use cpes make sure the area is DRY, unless it's dry it can not work the way it is designed. It may that several months of drying, temperature needs to be above 32 to dry.

My boat was very similar to yours in condition. I too checked every avenue of repair. What I realized is a "little leak" allowed the boat to be wet all the time. Wet = rot with time. Pulling the floor boards and keeping a fan on the hull will dry what you can see in several days. The problem is dampness between the mating surfaces. This dampness may take months to dry out.

The other problem was dirt and leaves under the floorboards I had no idea was collecting. All this needs to come out. It's amazing how fast it can collect, probably needs to be checked and cleared several times a summer, or in my case every 2 months since I use the boat year round.

I found that the all the bedding compound had failed and some screws were loose. I was very lucky only my inner keel was rotten and the first 1/2 inch of my ribs were in bad shape.

I started with a little disassembly and found the boat came apart very easily. In fact I ended up completely the Hull apart. Basically all I replaced was the inner keel, but I made it 2" wider so I could remove the rib ends that were rotted.

Result was a boat I have used for 3 years, 100+ hours and 8000 miles of trailering without any leaks.

Here's some pictures of my boat, the one with the Johnson is before and the one with the Evinrude is finish. Please excuse the other half which is pictures of my other boats.

http://www.aerialimaging.net/john

[John R]

Well, if you don't have the time or experience to work on it and are willing to spend a few bucks, there is a wooden boat restorer north of you, in Ten Mile, TN - just west of Sweetwater, TN and near Watts Bar Lake - who advertises in WoodenBoat Magazine. His name is Phil Mitchell and tel. is 865-603-1418. Maybe he can do the job for you, with advice received from others.

[Bill E]

Sorry to resurrect an old topic, but I wanted to introduce myself. I'm Bill Eason, and I'll be bringing Dave's boat to her new home this weekend and beginning her restoration. I'm also in Atlanta, GA and - long story short - I met Dave and his boat about 3.5 years ago just by chance on the first day I ever took out my newly-purchased 1984 Catalina 22 sailboat. My wife and I loved the Thompson, but I was determined to be a sailor (and was hoping to convert my wife!).

Fast forward to January 2008: I've given up on the family sailboat for now, and I was planning to build a Glen-L designed Malahini (16' runabout in open utility configuration, with ~85hp outboard). I even got the plans for Christmas. With my birthday coming up in Feb., my DW was browsing wooden runabouts for sale online for no real reason, just browsing. She hits Dave's newly-listed ad, and sends him an email. Then she shows me the listing. "THAT'S THE GUY WE MET!" I told her. So I scrap the building plans and am making plans now for a restoration. I'm reading all I can and hoping for a late spring/early summer re-launch.

SO... I'll be needing some advice! I know I have some waterline (& below) plank replacement/scarfing, and some frame replacement/scarfing to do as well. The transom joints, as you've seen, will need some work, as may the transom itself. Largely depends on how much I want to get into for now vs. doing just what I have to, then doing a full restoration at a later date after I've learned more about the boat and its construction.

Many thanks already to Joe for sending me his writeup of his '57 Sea Lancer restoration. If anyone else has similar writeups, I'd greatly welcome them!

John P - I'm intrigued by your photos on aerialimaging.net, especially since I think the best way for me to proceed is to bring the boat in and set her up upside down in my basement workshop. I'm amazed at how far you took yours apart without it falling to pieces.

One quick question on materials: from a lot of what I've read, the planking below the sheer plank might have been marine fir. Do you recommend this, or something else such as meranti? I know that okoume has less natural rot resistance, so I'd avoid that. Fir is also known to check badly, unless fiberglassed. Your thoughts?

Many thanks in advance, and I look forward to some good exchanges around here!